 MDC President Morgan Tsvangirai was a guest on Behind the Headlines soon after his party split into two camps. Related Articles
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Updated 16 February 2008
SW Radio Africa producer/presenter Lance Guma interviewed MDC President
Morgan Tsvangirai on the 9th June 2006, soon after an MDC National
Executive Committee meeting that day. Below is a transcript of the
interview.
Lance Guma
This week on Behind the Headlines, my guest is Movement for Democratic
Change president Morgan Tsvangirai. Now on the 12thOctober last year, the
MDC split into two camps over whether to participate in senate elections or
not. Our listeners are by now aware of the arguments presented by both sides
and so the focus of this interview is to review the situation as it stands
now. Now Mr Tsvangirai would you say at the moment it is a priority for your
party to try and re-unite the two sides of the MDC divide?
Morgan Tsvangirai
Well this is a perennial question. For us the priority is not on that, the
priority is set by the agenda of the people, which is to confront Robert
Mugabe and Zanu PF. Of course we have had a tragic event in October 12 and
it's a sad development but we need to be united on purpose and as far as we
are concerned the two formations, as long as they are focussed on the
question of Robert Mugabe and Zanu PF, I think we are on the same
wavelength.
Lance Guma
The Budiriro by-election must have given you quite a lift in terms of
legitimacy with the people, now there are people who are suggesting that
because of that you seem to have lost interest in engaging your former
colleagues, would you say that's fair criticism.
Morgan Tsvangirai
Far from it we are not in a position of finding relevance, the relevance is
defined by the struggle. The Budiriro by-election was a testimony; it was a
litmus test on where the people's feelings lie inspite of the confusion
around the two symbols, people chose the party that they thought best
represented their project. Let me also add that this emphasis on the
question about MDC is totally immaterial. When I go around the country,
people are not asking about that, people are asking when is this crisis
going to end. That should be where the focus should be.
Lance Guma
Right but in terms of having a stumbling block, because you do have a
constituency of people who do want to see you reunited, what would you point
out as the main stumbling blocks Mr Tsvangirai.
Morgan Tsvangirai
We are not the main stumbling block at all. If at all I have gone to such
lengths to take personal initiatives, there have been so many initiatives on
our behalf to persuade our colleagues to come back to the fold, indeed some
of the people have come back and we have said we have welcomed them. So it
is not a question of anybody being a stumbling block. It's a question of
whether strategically you are all focussing on the same issue and the
strategic question that confounds us is the issue of Mugabe and Zanu PF and
how we should deal with it. To us we believe that confrontation with the
regime is the best strategic option available to us. The others think that
compromise with the regime and those kinds of collaborations with the regime
is their strategy, they maybe right but as far as we are concerned, we don't
think they are right. So if there is a fundamental difference around
strategy, it doesn't matter. Bodies can come together, but certainly, you
need to be united on purpose.
Lance Guma
The other important issue still on this split and that will be my final
question regarding the split. Mr David Coltart wrote a letter in which he
says violence in the MDC has discouraged him from joining your party. Now do
you have any particular response to Mr Coltart on the issues he raised?
Morgan Tsvangirai
David Coltart has written a piece about violence and to us it is irrelevant
because there is no violence in the MDC, there is no structure of violence
in the MDC. Apparently, David Coltart has become so paranoid about violence
because he believes that Zanu PF does not have violence. The violent
environment in which we are operating in, is a result of Zanu PF state
sponsored violence. There is no structure of violence in the MDC. If there
is any violence, which is to mean, absence of law and order, which is a
responsibility of the state, that is how it should be dealt with. It is not
a personal issue, but David Coltart has the freedom of association and
freedom of disassociation. And I've not in any manner witnessed the kind of
perpetuation of this argument, which has come as a secondary issue. The
primary issue of our division was the senate election. Now the violence has
become his champion when we are all committed to non-violence in the
struggle. So where is the difference?
Lance Guma
An article in the Zimbabwe Independent seemed to suggest you were dropping
mass action in favour of a diplomatic offensive, now is this true
Morgan Tsvangirai
Absolutely no truth at all because this is speculation. It's a speculative
article without any substance, they didn't quote me, they just made a
conclusion out of no substance. The MDC is committed to see a resolution of
the national crisis. The crisis has assumed such a catastrophic level that
for us to divert from this people's project, and the people's project being
to popular resistance against the dictatorship, I think it's the greatest
betrayal, so there is no substance to that story. It is meant to discourage
people who are committed to a certain path towards resolving the national
crisis and it has no substance at all.
Lance Guma
The euphoria for mass action seems to be building up rapidly, now is there a
sense on your part as an opposition to feel that maybe you are taking too
long in mobilizing and in the process handing the initiative back to Zanu
PF.
Morgan Tsvangirai
No, we have a window of opportunity and we believe strongly that our action
is determined by our state of preparedness, nothing else. Our state of
preparedness is that we need to organise people on the ground, we have had
past experiences from which we have to learn our mistakes. And we believe
that when that action is taking place it must succeed, so those who are
anxious to get a time frame and all that, I can't define how they position
themselves, but as far as we are concerned our action will be determined
when we are ready.
Lance Guma
Most journalists received an e-mail from a group calling itself Concerned
Zimbabweans in which they were announcing a date for mass action sometime in
June, I think it was the 15th June. So a lot of people were feeling maybe it's
the work of the CIO or people within the party who are trying to motivate
the party to go along that route or to announce a date for the intended
action.
Morgan Tsvangirai
You don't motivate people by undertaking some adventurist activity, you
actually cause a lot of despondency because people want to see a more
organised, a more concerted effort with potential for success. They don't
want a one-off shot activity that then dies off. They want a sustainable
programme until their goal is achieved, so we don't know about that group,
maybe these are just 'agent provocateurs,' but certainly they don't enjoy
our support, they are not part of us as far as I know.
Lance Guma
I have just done a story, a few days ago covering the political violence in
Gokwe and I interviewed Mr Aaron Chinhara, now soon after the rally the MDC
held there two weeks ago, your supporters are being beaten up in the full
view of policemen, do you feel given such an environment Zimbabweans can
muster the courage to engage this regime.
Morgan Tsvangirai
Well the incident in Gokwe is a replica of the state sponsored violence I'm
talking about, that is being sponsored by the state and Zanu PF, and our
response is that the police have an obligation to protect people, if they
don't have that obligation then people have a right to protect themselves,
so I don't feel that is a discouragement, I think that people feel
threatened by those small incidents, I'm sure at a national scale people
have overcome those kind of fears and they are determined. In fact,
Zimbabweans are so resilient against this regime that it has tried all
tactics in the book, but it has failed.
Lance Guma
Today you have just had a press conference in which various issues were
discussed and I have a few questions based on that press conference. The MDC's
position on participation in elections, has been greeted with mixed
reactions, some feel you should not participate at all because you always
legitimize a rigged process. Do the disadvantages outweigh the advantages?
Morgan Tsvangirai
Well let me say that I think it's all one and the same thing. The struggle
assumes various forms , qualitatively I think that participating in a
particular election strategically chosen by the MDC adds value than
subtracts the disadvantage, so the question is we believe that elections
carefully selected, are a way of mobilizing our people and therefore are an
important aspect in advancing the struggle rather than disorganizing the
struggle. So to us we have now come to the conclusion that we are not
going against the resolution of our congress which says that we shall choose
tactically where to participate and where not to. So like we decided today,
we will go into Chitungwiza and Kadoma for the very same reasons. Overall I
think that it's debatable. All opinions especially from those who are
against participation are very persuasive but ultimately the leadership has
to make a decision where tactically it takes advantage for the struggle.
Lance Guma
In your press statement today you talk about the roadmap to legitimacy, now
how do you intend to achieve this.
Morgan Tsvangirai
Well our intention in unveiling this roadmap is that we believe that
Zimbabweans must come and resolve this national crisis which has now assumed
a very catastrophic level. So we believe that Zanu PF must be forced by the
action of the people, the demands of the people, to come to the negotiating
table and find a solution to the national crisis that we all face and that
process includes the question of transitional authority, the question of the
constitution and the question of free and fair elections, that is a roadmap
we are going to fight for and that is why the resistance is being organised
in order to achieve those demands.
Lance Guma
Mr Tsvangirai Zimbabwe currently has a cross mix of different civic groups
that seem to be pulling in different directions, now some observers have
suggested, why don't you co-ordinate protests at the same time because the
feeling is that the regime will not be able to deal with a united protest.
Morgan Tsvangirai
Well we do believe that yes I think some of those actions tend to be
sporadic and fragmented but we are working with our colleagues in civic
society to achieve that objective, so that a broader alliance of democratic
forces is built around confronting the regime. I am sure all these
activists that are participating in these fragmented approaches would like
us to work towards that goal, so I'm sure that as we move forward that
becomes even more imperative and the MDC will not be found lacking in giving
leadership to such a movement.
Lance Guma
Robert Mugabe's regime has said that the economy is in a mess because the
MDC and its allies have called for economic sanctions.
Morgan Tsvangirai
Well these perennial accusations have no substance at all. Mugabe knows that
what we are talking about are targeted sanctions, these are travel bans for
Zanu PF elites to go out to Europe and America, that's only the limitation,
its an incentive for good behaviour, unfortunately they have hidden behind
it because they are in a state of denial and in a state of scapegoating,
Mugabe knows that it is not travel bans that have caused inflation to reach
1000percent, it is not travel bans that have led to food shortages, to job
losses, to massive drug shortages in hospitals, all those are contributing
factors arising out of his own misrule.
Lance Guma
My final question Mr Tsvangirai, Party Secretary General Tendai Biti was
quoted by Reuters News Agency as having disclosed that the MDC had accepted
in principle, a proposal to grant to Mugabe immunity from prosecution for
human rights violations if that would help to save the nation from further
catastrophe. Now it seems that statement has created some controversy with
people supporting and some disagreeing, what's the MDC's position on this.
Morgan Tsvangirai
Well before the March 2005 election we were talking of a Truth and Justice
Commission, a commission which will hear the perpetrators as well as the
victims of violence. The position of the MDC which I know the Secretary
general has not misinterpreted is that we are now in a phase in which should
there be a choice by Zimbabweans as to the choice between Robert Mugabe
going and finding a solution to the national crisis, if that is the price
that has to be paid by Zimbabweans then of course Zimbabweans will be asked
to consider that. That is my understanding of his interpretation, he didn't
say that, that is the position of the MDC. He said it is a possibility
people have to consider in order to find a solution to the crisis that we
face, which crisis has now transcended ethnic, racial and whatever divide
and I'm sure that Zimbabweans will be able to make a choice, as to what is
the way forward, but he didn't say that we are giving Mugabe blanket
immunity, he recognises the extent of human rights abuses.
Lance Guma
That was MDC President Mr Morgan Tsvangirai.
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